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Borg Warner Type 35 servicing
PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 9:03 pm Reply with quote
MarinaJosh
Joined: 05 Oct 2008
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Location: A Bedford CA Dormobile with Aar0sc....




Hi all,
A friend of mine has recently got a 1.8 automatic Marina (the one COOPERMAN has just resprayed) and he has enlisted me to give it a quick service. Frank says it was a while since he last changed the gearbox oil so I figured that would be something I should do, but I was wondering if there was anything else I would need to do with the auto box?

I think there is a filter in there somewhere but it's not pictured in any diagrams of the box I have seen. Is it easy to get too, and will it be visible once the sump is off?

I haven't worked with auto boxes before, anything I need to pay particular attention too or be careful of?

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:17 pm Reply with quote
Matt of the Vivas
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Dont know specifically on Marinas but ive owned a few autos, and there is always a filter in the sump, and normally its not too hard to get it. Ive just done the one on my daily 205....
Be aware - Autos are very sensitive to dirt and muck, clean the sump down before you remove it, and when the sump is down be careful to keep nasties out of the gearbox. Working inside is best, if you have to work outside choose a windless day...
Also, the fluid capacity listed for it will be nothing like the amount you get out of the sump, so dont be too concerned. Most of it is retained in the torque converter and valve block and you wont be able to change it. For example, the capacity in the ZF box in my peugeot is 7 litres. I only got about 3 out of the sump.
Good luck - Matt.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:30 pm Reply with quote
harvey
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Changing the oil in an autobox can cause more problems that it solves, especially if the oil is really heavy with friction material particles suspended in it, because sometimes when they all disappear, they were all that was holding it all together. If the fluid looks fresh and clean then unless you know for certain that it's got the wrong fluid in it (Dexron) I'd leave well alone, and TBH, unless you're pretty experienced do you think you're competent to remove the sump and adjust the front band (torque screwdriver or spring balance and lever required) and then do the same for the external rear band adjuster (low reading torque wrench required). The filter is visible once the sump is off, but there are two types, and you won't know which one it needs until you look. Absolute cleanliness is essential, and you mustn't use any gasket sealers. My advice would be if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 12:08 am Reply with quote
MarinaJosh
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Location: A Bedford CA Dormobile with Aar0sc....




Thanks for the advice chaps.

Harvey, I assume from your intimate knowledge of P6s that you must have a lot of experience with the 35 'box, therefore I am rather inclined to take your advice Smile

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:29 am Reply with quote
Matt of the Vivas
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I wouldnt agree sorry.
There is no need to touch the adjustment of the box if all you want to do is change the oil and filter. And unless the box is on its last legs fresh fluid and filter can do nothing but good. Every time ive done it one of my cars (and my cars are generally old and knackered anyway) the auto box has changed smoother and quieter afterwards.
Argueing that the old fluid may be "holding the box together" is a bit like saying its a bad idea to change the oil on an old engine in case you lose oil pressure - you might, but only on an engine thats worn out anyway.
Matt.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 1:36 pm Reply with quote
harvey
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Well, two conflicting points of view then, let's all wait and see what happens.....

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:08 pm Reply with quote
MarinaJosh
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Location: A Bedford CA Dormobile with Aar0sc....




I can see both points of view. Of course what Matt says is theoretically 100% correct, fresh oil and filter should always be on the agenda.

But I know Harvey has experience with these boxes...

It probably will be getting done, but I wont be doing it in case I mess it up Laughing

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:39 pm Reply with quote
adibrook
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If it was me, I would go ahead and change it.

Over-obsessive maintenance in classic cars is a good thing, because most of them are way past their intended lifespan now.

Whenever I get a car that I don't know the history of, I always give it an extra big service (basically a normal service + brakes + belts + all bulbs + transmission and axle if applicable fluid etc). Other perishable things like water pumps, transmission oil seals, and things like that too.

The idea is that you get your whole car back to square one as it were, and all the important components have a brand new lifespan.

Granted, I have never had autos (never really was that much into autos) but if I had one, and I didn't know when the transmission fluid was last changed, I would definitely change it.

With common service/maintenence parts usually being cheap and available for most popular classic cars, you can give a car this extended service treatment for not very much money at all.

If the sludge and crap was holding the transmission together, then your transmission needs rebuild or replacement, and might suddenly fail on you during a journey, which is annoying.

That's just what I would do anyways.


Last edited by adibrook on Tue Mar 13, 2012 7:41 am; edited 1 time in total

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 6:46 pm Reply with quote
Matt of the Vivas
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MarinaJosh wrote:
I wont be doing it in case I mess it up Laughing


Its just a gearbox, nothing to be scared of. Just keep it clean and you will be fine. Looking at some of the intricate stuff you do with old radios i reckon your quite capable....

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1991 Peugeot 205 1600 Automatic (The Daily)
2008 Fiat Panda (The Wifes)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:29 pm Reply with quote
harvey
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Location: Essex




Matt of the Vivas wrote:
There is no need to touch the adjustment of the box if all you want to do is change the oil and filter.


The heading of the thread is "Borg Warner Type 35 servicing" if you consider a "service" to be just changing the oil and filter, I think that speaks volumes. If it had just said "changing the fluid" then I'd agree, but it doesn't.

Also you'll get less than half the fluid out by draining, no matter how long you leave it.

I also said that changing badly contaminated fluid wasn't a good idea, the thing is if the fluid isn't contaminated it doesn't really need changing anyway. It doesn't need changing in the same way engine oil does. The analogy with engine oil is a bad one. Changing engine oil that's badly contaminated will always improve things, changing auto fluid that's in the same condition won't. Regular fluid changes from new or after a rebuild are a good idea, random changes for no good reason, not so good. IIRC the recommended change interval was around 30K miles, not many cars with 35 boxes do that sort of mileage nowadays.

If the OP is paying someone else to do it, make sure they use the correct oil. Use only fluid that meets Ford specification M2C-33G. Do not use any of the Dexron fluids.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 8:51 pm Reply with quote
Matt of the Vivas
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harvey wrote:
Matt of the Vivas wrote:
There is no need to touch the adjustment of the box if all you want to do is change the oil and filter.


The heading of the thread is "Borg Warner Type 35 servicing" if you consider a "service" to be just changing the oil and filter, I think that speaks volumes..


Lets not get personal about my standards of workmanship pal - you dont know me and you have never seen any of my cars.

harvey wrote:
If it had just said "changing the fluid" then I'd agree, but it doesn't.


No - Josh asked about a quick service, and mentioned changing the oil. He also asked if there was a filter - which i answered. I did not mention adjustment as unless there is a problem, there is no real need to touch it.

harvey wrote:
Also you'll get less than half the fluid out by draining, no matter how long you leave it.


Yep, i mentioned that twice already.


harvey wrote:
I also said that changing badly contaminated fluid wasn't a good idea, the thing is if the fluid isn't contaminated it doesn't really need changing anyway. It doesn't need changing in the same way engine oil does. The analogy with engine oil is a bad one. Changing engine oil that's badly contaminated will always improve things, changing auto fluid that's in the same condition won't. Regular fluid changes from new or after a rebuild are a good idea, random changes for no good reason, not so good. IIRC the recommended change interval was around 30K miles, not many cars with 35 boxes do that sort of mileage nowadays.


Wrong - all oils no matter what application degrade over time and mileage. Engine oil does degrade much faster due to the by-products of combustion and condensation entering the oil, but any oil in any application will eventually wear out. Dont forget the Marina was a "fleet" type of car, and the minimum of servicing would have been specified to keep the cost of maintainence low. Fine if your only expecting the car to last 10 years, not so good after nearly 40...


harvey wrote:
If the OP is paying someone else to do it, make sure they use the correct oil. Use only fluid that meets Ford specification M2C-33G. Do not use any of the Dexron fluids.


One piece of sensible advice at least.
Matt.

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1991 Peugeot 205 1600 Automatic (The Daily)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:01 pm Reply with quote
harvey
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Location: Essex




Matt of the Vivas wrote:
harvey wrote:
I also said that changing badly contaminated fluid wasn't a good idea, the thing is if the fluid isn't contaminated it doesn't really need changing anyway. It doesn't need changing in the same way engine oil does. The analogy with engine oil is a bad one. Changing engine oil that's badly contaminated will always improve things, changing auto fluid that's in the same condition won't. Regular fluid changes from new or after a rebuild are a good idea, random changes for no good reason, not so good. IIRC the recommended change interval was around 30K miles, not many cars with 35 boxes do that sort of mileage nowadays.


Wrong - all oils no matter what application degrade over time and mileage. Engine oil does degrade much faster due to the by-products of combustion and condensation entering the oil, but any oil in any application will eventually wear out. .


Read what I wrote again and you'll see that i didn't say that it doesn't deteriorate, only that it doesn't deteriorate in the same way as engine oil. Obviously after 100K miles the oil will need changing, but there will be signs of contamination, and changing it then will just hasten the end.

As for what the OP meant, I just answered according to the heading on the thread.

Apologies if you've taken offence at what I said, that wasn't my intention.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:03 pm Reply with quote
Matt of the Vivas
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Fair enough Laughing

So Josh, now you have caused an argument, are you going to change the fluid or not?? Laughing Laughing

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1991 Peugeot 205 1600 Automatic (The Daily)
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 9:47 pm Reply with quote
cyd
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Josh
No sensible advice to give on autoboxes..... Just Autoboxes?? runaway

Don't suppose that helps really does it?

J

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2012 10:43 pm Reply with quote
adibrook
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I was going to type out a reasonably long thing about how 'if it ain't broke don't fix it' doesn't apply to classic cars, and a more appropriate phrase is ''Even if it ain't broke, fix it anyways so at least you know roughly when it breaks'', but now I realize that there is no explanation really needed to that statement, it kind of speaks for itself.

I don't know almost anything about autoboxes since I don't like autos, I find them very odd to drive and for some reason I find the lack of clutch pedal very uncomfortable, I don't know why but I subconsciously really don't like not having the ability to control the clutch.

However the very limited things that I do know (from watching other people do it, and occasionally helping friends do it) is that:

-Auto boxes CAN be serviced and even repaired or rebuilt in a DIY setting, contrary to popular belief there is nothing 'magic' about them, if you can rebuild an engine you can rebuild a typical 'classic' age auto tranny.

BUT

-You have to be very meticulous and precise with EVERYTHING you do, and you must have manufacturer specifications and follow them to the letter. Whereas with a typical engine or manual transmission, you can sort of semi-guess things like tightening torques or end floats, with auto transmissions you have to do everything precisely.

As an example, say with engine main bearing caps. They have a specific tightening torque, however if you just do them up 'tight', there is an over 99% chance that the engine will still live a normal and healthy full life without ill effect. You can even semi-guess head torques if you are really that desperate, and again the chance of getting lucky and the engine working OK for a full and healthy life is reasonable, maybe even 50% or more. You know what I mean?

However, with auto box, everything has to be dead on spec, like the torques mentioned by someone else in this thread, you can't guess things or hope to get lucky.

-Everything has to be really, really clean. Kitchen table covered with a charity shop bed-sheet or large towel works well. You can't afford to let any dirt in there, at all what so ever.

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